tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post384048706216049666..comments2024-02-18T19:36:43.844+11:00Comments on theatre notes: Reality: what a conceptAlison Croggonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-15747038968197962402008-06-05T23:22:00.000+10:002008-06-05T23:22:00.000+10:00I'm sure the images are open to many interpretatio...I'm sure the images are open to many interpretations, but one thing that they certainly are not is pornographic - or even provocatively erotic. The images do nothing to encourage the gaze of pedophiles or invite sexual arousal.<BR/><BR/>At most, they suggest the sexual potential of these young people, just beginning to metamorphose from childhood into the beginnings of adulthood. It's a Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-12385987439592526762008-06-05T11:08:00.000+10:002008-06-05T11:08:00.000+10:00Yes, I simply didn't recognise Henson's images in ...Yes, I simply didn't recognise Henson's images in those Sadean descriptions of Rundle's. No question that some are disturbing and ambiguous, but the over-riding quality (to this eye) is a dream-like mystery. What was "damaged" in the nude girl whose image has been at the centre of the whole controversy? What I saw was a beautiful photograph of one of the most moving times in a girl's evolution toAlison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-54160845744670452912008-06-05T06:24:00.000+10:002008-06-05T06:24:00.000+10:00Congratulations, Alison (and others), on your inde...Congratulations, Alison (and others), on your indefatiguable posting in light of the fact that you also have a life. <BR/><BR/>I had a few thoughts about the Rundle piece also. Rundle asserts this is not a ‘free speech’ issue, but it is. Once again reference is being made to laws which are not named (thanks, Abe). But the various state and federal child protection, anti-obscenity and other lawsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-4406474720935478742008-06-04T23:15:00.000+10:002008-06-04T23:15:00.000+10:00Tony, perhaps it would have been courteous to post...Tony, perhaps it would have been courteous to post a link, so readers could see that - in fact, very long - list if they wanted to. (Yes, I expect commenters here to be courteous, it's in the comments policy, which you can click from the sidebar - why? because it's a much better way of communicating than the default sledging on blogs). To be honest, I don't know why you're targeting <I>me</I>, Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-26565475884264891412008-06-04T22:04:00.000+10:002008-06-04T22:04:00.000+10:00"It strikes me from the posted examples that the p...<I>"It strikes me from the posted examples that the problem isn't the question of artistic merit at all, which is one of the few and necessary defenses we have against the blanket moralisers.</I><BR/><BR/>As I said in the post you've removed, how nice it must be to be a part of your "we", Alison. To be on that short list of controversial artists sufficiently "meritorious" to be permitted to be Tony Comstockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06376376894244593929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-42850499117727571792008-06-04T21:51:00.000+10:002008-06-04T21:51:00.000+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tony Comstockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06376376894244593929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-74321463676910370702008-06-04T17:34:00.000+10:002008-06-04T17:34:00.000+10:00Note: I removed Tony's long list of banned movies ...Note: I removed Tony's long list of banned movies to save readers endless scrolling.Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-21819755748307817222008-06-04T17:08:00.000+10:002008-06-04T17:08:00.000+10:00Jack, I've written many hundreds, or more likely t...Jack, I've written <I>many</I> hundreds, or more likely thousands, of words on this issue over the past week to the detriment of the rest of my life. I've already posted a detailed critique of another article somewhere else on this blog, and I've answered numerous other arguments here, on my own blog, and elsewhere in the national and international blogosphere. Whether or not I've succeeded, I'veRussell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-40825055018387803982008-06-04T16:57:00.000+10:002008-06-04T16:57:00.000+10:00It's nice to see you remain both eloquent and cour...It's nice to see you remain both eloquent and courteous!<BR/><BR/>I've read a lot of blogs over the last week and it's remarkable how rude people who passionately defend us from impropriety can be.<BR/><BR/>They don't seem to detect the irony.Inksterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03970361485089790545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-13612812918769503602008-06-04T14:57:00.000+10:002008-06-04T14:57:00.000+10:00(cont)...ok, I'll take the bait. A little. The que...(cont)...ok, I'll take the bait. A little. The question of artistic merit in Henson's case was always there for the reasons Abe named. In Henson's case, it's a clear legal question that pertains to whether he ought to be prosecuted for obscenity.<BR/><BR/>But to broaden the issue: I have never understood why art is considered to be elitist, when anyone who can see or read or listen can Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-24996887695796099242008-06-04T13:37:00.000+10:002008-06-04T13:37:00.000+10:00Sigh. No, I don't feel like arguing with Rundle po...Sigh. No, I don't feel like arguing with Rundle point by point. I'm a bit tired of arguing about all of this at the moment. But the complexity of my own position might be deduced from the fact that I write in what, in this rather tired false binary, might be called High Art forms (opera libretti, poetry et al) and Low Art (epic fantasy novels). In all of them with some success. And I totally failAlison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-80349409724470665732008-06-04T13:18:00.000+10:002008-06-04T13:18:00.000+10:00For a critic there's barely any actual criticism o...For a critic there's barely any actual criticism of Rundle's article, aside from a couple of catty comments suggesting he hasn't read the open letter. The sole substantive point is Abe Pogos's argument that the existing law allows special exemption for artistic merit. <BR/><BR/>Rundle's argument, as I read it, is that the high/low, art/porn distinction this was based on, is disappearing, and thatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-49318132385078052672008-06-04T11:08:00.000+10:002008-06-04T11:08:00.000+10:00No, you misunderstand me profoundly Tony. Perhaps ...No, you misunderstand me profoundly Tony. Perhaps even wilfully. Of course I think the primary judgment is aethetic, and I'm arguing precisely for that to occur in the proper places (ie, in public fora like this, rather than in a court of law). I'm a bit tired of arguing in circles around this one, so you'll forgive me if I butt out. I've got a life that is noisily demanding attention.Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-57376372175183818282008-06-04T10:52:00.000+10:002008-06-04T10:52:00.000+10:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Tony Comstockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06376376894244593929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-26765536124040728292008-06-04T09:54:00.000+10:002008-06-04T09:54:00.000+10:00It strikes me from the posted examples that the pr...It strikes me from the posted examples that the problem isn't the question of artistic merit at all, which is one of the few and necessary defences we have against the blanket moralisers, but the judgments of the OFLC that in some cases other considerations override it. And it is those judgments that ought to be (and have been) criticised and questioned.Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-35821627416205556162008-06-04T06:39:00.000+10:002008-06-04T06:39:00.000+10:00Alison said "PS I wouldn't like to be arguing that...Alison said "PS I wouldn't like to be arguing that art that makes money disqualifies itself as art."<BR/><BR/>I didn't mean to come across as supporting this argument.<BR/><BR/>This type of argument is a natural consequence of interpreting legislation that focuses on "purpose" or "intention".<BR/><BR/>It doesn't deal very well with the reality that people's conduct can have multiple purposes or Inksterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03970361485089790545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-17524185344617639862008-06-04T00:03:00.000+10:002008-06-04T00:03:00.000+10:00From the OFLC's Classification Review Board decisi...From the OFLC's Classification Review Board decision to reclassify 9 songs from Refused Classification to "R" -- "9 Songs, made by the highly-regarded British director Michael Winterbottom, is a film of serious intent and considered by many to have artistic merit. The underlying themes of the movie, the honest, realistic and, at times, emotional and poignant depiction of the couple’s Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-82808084396119387602008-06-03T23:05:00.000+10:002008-06-03T23:05:00.000+10:00Artistic Merit• Under Section 11 of the Act, artis...<I>Artistic Merit<BR/>• Under Section 11 of the Act, artistic merit is one of the many considerations that must be taken into account when making classification decisions.<BR/>• Some people believe that artistic merit is given too much weight and is used to justify R decisions for films such as Gasper Noe’s Irreversible and more recently Michael Winterbottom’s 9 Songs.<BR/>• Such assertions are Tony Comstockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06376376894244593929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-3942942658846610232008-06-03T22:12:00.000+10:002008-06-03T22:12:00.000+10:00PS I wouldn't like to be arguing that art that mak...PS I wouldn't like to be arguing that art that makes money disqualifies itself as art.Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-60603111211329641432008-06-03T22:00:00.000+10:002008-06-03T22:00:00.000+10:00I wouldn't get too superior about being self-servi...I wouldn't get too superior about being self-serving, Tony; and I don't know why you keep banging on about my "friends". I speak of many people I've never met and never will meet. Bertolt Brecht or Shakespeare, for instance. Just quietly, if your film was included in a film festival, it would have a good case for artistic merit; and if I were you I'd be arguing up its artistic merit for all it Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-72174875459014520602008-06-03T21:46:00.000+10:002008-06-03T21:46:00.000+10:00I wouldn't get too hung up on the issue of relativ...I wouldn't get too hung up on the issue of relative merit.<BR/><BR/>The issue in the case of child pornography is "genuine artistic purpose" and the "reasonableness" of the conduct in pursuit of this purpose.<BR/><BR/>If the purpose exists and is genuine, it wouldn't matter whether it scored 47 out of 100 in the merit stakes, as long as it was still reasonable.<BR/><BR/>In a sense, it is the Inksterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03970361485089790545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-27288025389966098642008-06-03T20:05:00.000+10:002008-06-03T20:05:00.000+10:00"I defend the concept of "artistic merit" because ...<I>"I defend the concept of "artistic merit" because I believe there is such a thing."</I><BR/><BR/>"Artistic merit" serves you, and the people you know. Is it beyond your imagination that that this concept, when enshrined into law, cuts people off at the knees. It denies people's work a venue, denies people a livelihood, threatens their liberty, and stifles expressive freedom.<BR/><BR/>You Tony Comstockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06376376894244593929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-35054575770475283912008-06-03T14:20:00.000+10:002008-06-03T14:20:00.000+10:00Actually, Tony, if you follow what I've been doing...Actually, Tony, if you follow what I've been doing for the last ten years it involves defending the freedom of scientists to engage in biomedical research, defending people who want to be critical of religion (e.g. I've opposed religious vilification legislation ... and incidentally also argued for narrower legislation on racial vilification), and much else. I've even taken highly unpopular Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-13162169600927059202008-06-03T12:23:00.000+10:002008-06-03T12:23:00.000+10:00Erm. This is a bit unfair on those "artists and in...Erm. This is a bit unfair on those "artists and intellectuals" who do constantly defend freedom of speech in all sorts of arenas, including political questions that have more significance in terms of life and death than whether Henson's work ought to be banned. As I've already explained, the "2020 club" (for godsake) has been in existence since this April, so can hardly be expected to act on Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-19215728002277029062008-06-03T11:43:00.000+10:002008-06-03T11:43:00.000+10:00it's a shame that many of those who seek to speak ...<I>it's a shame that many of those who seek to speak out against censorship do so in a selective way, one that obliquely argues for the status quo"</I><BR/><BR/>What many people who insist on returning to the question of <I>artistic merit</I> miss is that the money that fuels attacks from groups like the Australian Family Association comes from victories in battles that the 2020 club, the <I>Tony Comstockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06376376894244593929noreply@blogger.com