tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post465757001660762339..comments2024-02-18T19:36:43.844+11:00Comments on theatre notes: Review: Moth, The Joy of TextAlison Croggonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-58161704729523337162011-07-22T11:52:11.256+10:002011-07-22T11:52:11.256+10:00Delighted to hear that, Me again. (Me again?) It w...Delighted to hear that, Me again. (Me again?) It would certainly repay a close look! <br /><br />And belatedly, 4Coffins, not knowing is a fruitful place. Never lose it.Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-65438701267025973802011-07-22T11:39:12.129+10:002011-07-22T11:39:12.129+10:00I went to see Joy of Text last night and very much...I went to see Joy of Text last night and very much enjoyed it. I also enjoy the back and forth discussion here, including all the heated narky bits! <br /><br />I would love to spend a semester at uni dissecting, analysing and learning about all this play has to offer; some references I understood, some sounded familiar but I didn't completely 'get' - and lots went over my head. I Me againnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-55331268334743966652011-07-20T11:41:29.663+10:002011-07-20T11:41:29.663+10:00I make an observation too. It's impossible to ...I make an observation too. It's impossible to write <i>without</i> a modicum of ego.Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-73477535760155475392011-07-14T13:54:04.151+10:002011-07-14T13:54:04.151+10:00I check on this site now and again. I make an obse...I check on this site now and again. I make an observation. You write with too much ego. Both of you. It begins about the work. It ends up being about you. And you're both guilty of it. Both guilty of indulging in it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-2266442749835830622011-07-07T23:27:47.261+10:002011-07-07T23:27:47.261+10:00I'm not sure I mean realistic as much as contr...I'm not sure I mean realistic as much as contradictory. e.g Superman is not a realistic character but the fantasy is unified and there's a set of rules that remain consistent. He hates Kryptonite, loves Lois, is kind of accidentally a hero and has all the psychological traits that go along with that. He doesn't suddenly love Kryptonite because its neccessary for the plot to take us toRichard Pettiferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00916298496154973547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-60224067976580838812011-07-06T11:19:24.218+10:002011-07-06T11:19:24.218+10:00Hi 4Coffins - well, there's no reason why a ch...Hi 4Coffins - well, there's no reason why a character on a stage needs to be in any way realistic. I guess the tension you felt was very similar to one I did - the clash between the characters being realistic and relatable, or being something else, maybe a bit Stoppardian, linguistic fictions which generate another order of reality. <br /><br />I'm not sure there was a "message"Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-68587882455589790572011-07-06T01:02:47.995+10:002011-07-06T01:02:47.995+10:00Wow everyone knows so much stuff that's awesom...Wow everyone knows so much stuff that's awesome :)<br /><br />I agree with you Alison - I enjoyed the play but there was some contradictions in it which nagged away at me.<br /><br />I'm not sure whether to try and flesh these out because I'm not quite sure what bothered me, only that I felt like the thing didn't quite "line up" properly.<br /><br />Perhaps it was a Richard Pettiferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00916298496154973547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-86591903720781189012011-07-02T01:15:40.955+10:002011-07-02T01:15:40.955+10:00Speaking of courts and theatre, I just saw a play ...Speaking of courts and theatre, I just saw a play about Lionel Murphy at La Mama. I'll have to channel my inner Solon. <br />Plus my interview with Geoffrey Robertson QC is up, to coincide with Amnesty International's 50th. I wrote it for a student newspaper, so it's pretty bolshie.Cameron Woodheadhttp://cameronwoodhead.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-72104796355079409512011-07-01T18:01:00.989+10:002011-07-01T18:01:00.989+10:00I was thinking more Socratic as in learning throug...I was thinking more Socratic as in learning through argument. It's not an accident that the Greeks invented courts, philosophy and theatre at around the same time...Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-83353901177438033682011-07-01T12:26:10.831+10:002011-07-01T12:26:10.831+10:00Philosophy does bleed through the artform. George ...Philosophy does bleed through the artform. George Hunka has an interesting piece on how they dovetail over at Superfluities. I'm not sure we can lay a claim to being especially Socratic, but I've always thought the best critics, the best teachers, the best philosophers, and indeed the best people, never really stop being students.Cameron Woodheadhttp://cameronwoodhead.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-33841237005827303792011-07-01T09:28:39.359+10:002011-07-01T09:28:39.359+10:00Yes, it's no fun if you're not learning so...Yes, it's no fun if you're not learning something. Are theatre critics naturally Socratic, I wonder? I mean, more than other kinds of critics. It might bleed through from the artform. (There's a whole argument about learning and teaching in The Joy of Text, too.)Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-17334351483180312222011-06-30T13:18:02.361+10:002011-06-30T13:18:02.361+10:00Me too. Arguing with you is often great fun, and e...Me too. Arguing with you is often great fun, and enriches my experience of the art. I usually learn something, and there's really no substitute for it, in terms of honing critical skills. Naturally, I wouldn't bother if I didn't respect your opinion.<br /><br />It's unfortunate that I had to respond to Geoffrey's outrageous libel. (I apologised, you were gracious enough to Cameron Woodheadhttp://cameronwoodhead.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-81268361587210739072011-06-30T11:53:18.390+10:002011-06-30T11:53:18.390+10:00Cameron, the best way not to derail an argument is...Cameron, the best way not to derail an argument is to stop following the will o'the wisp of resentment into the slough of despond and outrageous boredom. Which is where inevitably it ends.<br /><br />And yes, I hugely enjoy a good argument.Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-27888619169781193412011-06-30T11:46:23.200+10:002011-06-30T11:46:23.200+10:00Sorry for being brief. What I meant by my comment ...Sorry for being brief. What I meant by my comment was to convey how much enjoyment I was getting by seeing Alison and Cameron re-enact the first scenes of The Joy of Text in this critique.<br /><br />A kind of critique imitating art imitating something we can't agree on.<br /><br />It's a lot of fun.<br /><br />Personally I love the blog and the comments. One almost can't exist Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-62053070888857753102011-06-30T10:53:02.616+10:002011-06-30T10:53:02.616+10:00Geoffrey,
FYI. The apology count is Cameron 2, Al...Geoffrey,<br /><br />FYI. The apology count is Cameron 2, Alison 0. <br /><br />Most of my contribution in this thread has been directed to what Alison thinks of the work at hand (which I'm interested in), what I think of it, and exploring how and why our opinions differ. Developing and refining opinion is, ideally, what the comments section is for. I can’t speak for Alison, but I was Cameron Woodheadhttp://cameronwoodhead.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-4815001156589967762011-06-30T09:54:35.709+10:002011-06-30T09:54:35.709+10:00Personally, I'm a fan of Brewers Dictionary of...Personally, I'm a fan of Brewers Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. Especially the old editions, which are full of wonderful inaccuracies.Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-37355753090371932732011-06-30T09:37:57.286+10:002011-06-30T09:37:57.286+10:00So Alison is arguing for Fowler and Cameron for St...So Alison is arguing for Fowler and Cameron for Strunk?Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-70311165393361117282011-06-30T09:17:39.632+10:002011-06-30T09:17:39.632+10:00If I may just do the blog equivalent of farting in...If I may just do the blog equivalent of farting in the lift: I don't visit Theatrenotes to read about what you think of Alison, Cameron. I actually come here to find out what Alison thinks of the work at hand.<br /><br />Instead of having to apologise so often (and odd admission if I do say so), maybe you should stop crashing into the room, wildly waving your library card around in the air soGeoffreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05409350618909242278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-58060696170998335072011-06-29T13:50:06.731+10:002011-06-29T13:50:06.731+10:00Alison,
We both call it as we see it. I was, init...Alison,<br /><br />We both call it as we see it. I was, initially, trying to tease out your argument about the writing in this particular play. Evidence for some of your assertions seems shaky to me. I'm going to give the script a read this week. As for ad hominems, of course I think you're ahead. But I've lost count, and I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate me revisiting some of Cameron Woodheadhttp://cameronwoodhead.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-25559347360440328482011-06-29T09:07:27.449+10:002011-06-29T09:07:27.449+10:00Hi Cameron - apology accepted, tho I think you'...Hi Cameron - apology accepted, tho I think you're well ahead on the ad hominems. <br /><br />And yes, we're both speculating. I wasn't arguing, btw, that metafiction is intrinsically anti-human, though there's a solid argument that it's anti-humanist, from Rabelais on. Yes, I'm more familiar with European metafictional novels than the American branch; I'd say writers Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-72489032013417056182011-06-29T09:05:58.139+10:002011-06-29T09:05:58.139+10:00"[I]t seems a bit weird to [blame the writing..."[I]t seems a bit weird to [blame the writing] with such an explosion of talented Australian drama making it to our main stages simultaneously." — Cameron Woodhead<br /><br />"As far as the local industry's concerned, I freely admit that I am much more protective and gentle towards the Australian film industry." — Margaret Pomeranz<br /><br />It doesn't make sense to Matthewhttp://www.matthewclayfield.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-91291754690386824152011-06-28T23:26:48.686+10:002011-06-28T23:26:48.686+10:00Quite. I'm not sure we're quite even in th...Quite. I'm not sure we're quite even in the ad hominem stakes. (You've had a few years on me there. Plus you tweet.) But that's irrelevant. The remark was uncalled for. I apologise.<br /><br />I do wonder if your appreciation of the text might be different if you'd read DFW, Eugenides, Eggers, and other American postmoderns from the 90s and 2000s, who turn metafictional Cameron Woodheadhttp://cameronwoodhead.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-83661856757299987702011-06-28T17:24:02.846+10:002011-06-28T17:24:02.846+10:00Cameron: you think the problems you discerned in t...Cameron: you think the problems you discerned in the show were in the production. I, on the other hand, trace the problems I saw in the production to unresolved and/or unacknowledged contradictions in the ideas in the play itself. I think that the desire to show the "human" (if you like) stumbles over the very problems the play foregrounds, which are precisely those of authenticity and Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-19628861179975746392011-06-28T15:34:35.700+10:002011-06-28T15:34:35.700+10:00I'm not sure you've addressed or even unde...I'm not sure you've addressed or even understood my point.<br /><br />I didn't say the opening scenes were naturalistic. Authentic? Absolutely. Emotional authenticity is by no means a purely naturalistic phenomenon. Naturalism has no monopoly on it, which is what the best writers in the postmodern tradition try to show. <br /><br />Your reading of the play falls into the trap of Cameron Woodheadhttp://cameronwoodhead.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-35551270663082254632011-06-28T12:53:55.281+10:002011-06-28T12:53:55.281+10:00Hi Raili - fustian is one of those glorious words ...Hi Raili - fustian is one of those glorious words that sounds like what it means.<br /><br />Hi Cameron - I'm kind of amazed that you'd take the opening scenes as naturalistic. But hey.<br /><br />I didn't precisely miss the Swift/Sterne references. They too are writers who delight in the artifice of written language. Swift's Tale of a Tub is (if you can be bothered to negotiate Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.com