tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post3762191300638284524..comments2024-02-18T19:36:43.844+11:00Comments on theatre notes: Fragmentary musingAlison Croggonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-12573491690533314622010-11-26T09:05:15.888+11:002010-11-26T09:05:15.888+11:00MOI, what you say seems to me to be insupportable ...MOI, what you say seems to me to be insupportable when contemplating any halfway interesting work of art. But that's where this whole discussion began: my total bafflement at anyone being able to think about form and content in such absolute and limiting terms. Thanks for illustrating so neatly that such notions are not a strawman of my mind.Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-15424589187856153302010-11-25T18:20:05.169+11:002010-11-25T18:20:05.169+11:00Hi Allison,
"Of its time" and "tim...Hi Allison,<br /><br />"Of its time" and "timely" don't mean the same thing. "Britain's Got Talent" is not timely just because it is of its time. I think most people would stare at you blankly if you said that the form of a Victorian novel was timely.<br /><br />Similarly, I don't buy what you say about clumsy content. It's not the content that is Andrew Wood Acting Studiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05427231273355510134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-32570829529806699272010-11-23T16:50:46.212+11:002010-11-23T16:50:46.212+11:00Form and content in music/sound compositional thin...Form and content in music/sound compositional thinking are tightly entwined:one of the effects of the incredible 4'33" was the creation of an ever expanding series of concentric circles, around the idea of form-content, heard-notated-imagined.<br />a fugue holds both its form and content within the first bar...Madeleine Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-62453363093987638562010-11-21T16:43:21.816+11:002010-11-21T16:43:21.816+11:00"I'm intrigued by the idea that content i..."I'm intrigued by the idea that content is a quality in part created by a work's audience." <br /><br />That, to me, is a fundamental.... <br /><br />Cheers from 'somewhere' in the blogosphere...jhttp://www.jameswaites.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-28640699656833025812010-11-21T13:26:54.342+11:002010-11-21T13:26:54.342+11:00"I'm intrigued by the idea that content i..."I'm intrigued by the idea that content is a quality in part created by a work's audience."<br /><br />Me too, and I think it probably is. I went to see a show the other day where I was the only person in the audience (and no, this situation wasn't intended by the artists). I couldn't really find a way to avoid mentioning that in the review. It affected the whole Cameron Woodheadhttp://cameronwoodhead.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-5234160290284708762010-11-21T09:37:28.149+11:002010-11-21T09:37:28.149+11:00Hi Amelia - that echoes a conversation yesterday w...Hi Amelia - that echoes a conversation yesterday where we said that exactly, how each work insists on its own form, how form and content arise together. I literally can't imagine a story without imagining its form (shape/style). I'm not sure either comes first. Although I guess I have decided to write a sonnet and then sat down and written a sonnet... <br /><br />Cameron, there's a Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-56017872653720430492010-11-21T02:57:01.680+11:002010-11-21T02:57:01.680+11:00They SHOULD be indistinguishable but are often not...They SHOULD be indistinguishable but are often not(is there a word for leaning on each other in an endless cycle?) <br /><br />I like something a russian once said about every story needing to invent/imagine its own form, its own way to tell itself with its own unique logic... this for writing and directing - esp 'classics'. Maybe this is because all stories have been told before but it Amelianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-40864707895542560652010-11-21T01:54:57.188+11:002010-11-21T01:54:57.188+11:004'33" does not have no content. That'...4'33" does not have no content. That's the point. The music's in the lady fidgeting with her pearls next to you (or whatever). Even the musicians walking on stage and preparing not to play can be regarded as content, imho. <br /><br />(Weird and kind of interesting factoid re: 4'33". In the last few years, neuroscientists have discovered that the processing centre in theCameron Woodheadhttp://cameronwoodhead.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-5294341137462305012010-11-20T23:35:10.866+11:002010-11-20T23:35:10.866+11:004'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4&...4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33" 4'33"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-69848513683397053972010-11-20T18:24:15.676+11:002010-11-20T18:24:15.676+11:00I just tried to post a medium-length comment with ...I just tried to post a medium-length comment with no characters as a blog version of 4'33" but darn blogspot has a no-form-without-content-even-if-that's-the-content policy.<br /><br />I keep confusing this discussion with the distinction between plot and story espoused by the formalists. Story being (very) roughly analogous to content while plot is more time-bound - the time of Born Dancin'https://www.blogger.com/profile/14526760383290674186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-4912785128110041902010-11-20T18:05:03.710+11:002010-11-20T18:05:03.710+11:00Interestingly, although I had no trouble thinking ...Interestingly, although I had no trouble thinking of a work with form and no content, I can't for the life of me think of one with content and no form.Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-24203642954504112102010-11-20T17:34:20.530+11:002010-11-20T17:34:20.530+11:00Hi MOI - I can think of examples where content is ...Hi MOI - I can think of examples where content is clumsy (bad political argument) or form is timely without any difficulty at all. Thinking here in terms of timely form of Falk Richter's Electronic City, which I saw the other night, although there are squillions of examples - the popular Victorian melodramatic novel was of its time, say, and the steampunk variations written now are an Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-54002516522148870402010-11-20T17:13:56.037+11:002010-11-20T17:13:56.037+11:00If form and content is a false distinction, then w...If form and content is a false distinction, then we should be able to use the terms interchangeably. But what happens? We can comfortably talk about the content of a work being timely, but if we say the form of the work is timely, we feel an awkward clunk. Similarly, we might say that the form of a work is clumsy, but if we try to say that the content of the work is clumsy, again, we flirt withAndrew Wood Acting Studiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05427231273355510134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-63284638699582086152010-11-20T13:17:05.435+11:002010-11-20T13:17:05.435+11:00Hi all! Rather belatedly catching up here... Fener...Hi all! Rather belatedly catching up here... Fenerbahçe, "permeable" means a membrane that can be penetrated, usually by liquids or gas, used here metaphorically to mean an uncertain division.<br /><br />Hi Skellis - I'm not sure that I understand how content can subsume form, although I can understand how form can give rise to content (and vice versa, actually). Doesn't WallaceAlison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-25031283856277168942010-11-19T22:39:22.842+11:002010-11-19T22:39:22.842+11:00If the expression of an artwork is in its dichotom...If the expression of an artwork is in its dichotomy, then it is this tension that must be wrestled with to understand the voice of the work. In other words the distinction between form and content is instinctual, intellectual and necessary in the creating of some thing. The ‘trouble inside’ an extraordinary artwork is the crystalisation of twins: the image and the reflection, the remembered andAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-79795061722941044522010-11-19T08:51:11.155+11:002010-11-19T08:51:11.155+11:00Adding my 2c worth a little late here, but I quite...Adding my 2c worth a little late here, but I quite like Thomas McEvilley's very clear articulation of "content arising directly from the formal properties of an artwork". <br /><br />Content subsumes form (I can see that venn diagram!), which I suspect is more useful than thinking of them as, for example, being on a continuum or as a binary.<br /><br />He suggests that "all Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-11900631331792390422010-11-18T22:40:43.761+11:002010-11-18T22:40:43.761+11:00thanks very much it is good articlethanks very much it is good articleDüğün Salonlarıhttp://www.elestiriyoruz.com/dugun-salonlari/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-85540419154499907242010-11-18T22:22:01.519+11:002010-11-18T22:22:01.519+11:00what is permeable ?what is permeable ?Fenerbahçe Bucaspor Maçı Canlı İzlehttp://www.elestiriyoruz.com/spor-haberleri/fenerbahce-bucaspor-maci-canli-izle/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-65888275039991262072010-11-18T21:31:34.952+11:002010-11-18T21:31:34.952+11:00thanks very much fot the beautiful postthanks very much fot the beautiful postSemerkand Tv İzlehttp://www.elestiriyoruz.com/radyo-dinle/semerkand-tv-canli-izle/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-51128232967731212772010-11-18T14:02:39.310+11:002010-11-18T14:02:39.310+11:00"Epithets like "greatest living poet&quo..."Epithets like "greatest living poet" make me flinch - I'm not sure that Carson deserves such rhetoric. Which is not to say she's not an astonishing writer, but a poet of such intellectual and emotional precision deserves a just enthusiasm that doesn't make you think, well, what about Adonis? or Geoffrey Hill? or Ingeborg Bachmann...?"<br /><br />I say shit like Cameron Woodheadhttp://camwoodhead.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-61163027629582595842010-11-18T12:42:56.231+11:002010-11-18T12:42:56.231+11:00Also - there's a very permeable and difficult ...Also - there's a very permeable and difficult line between "bias" and critical aesthetic. (One presumably honourable, the other to be deplored). How you distinguish one from the other? Is it, in fact, possible? But this is getting too interesting, and I am supposed to be doing something else.Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-8823545353522394422010-11-18T12:34:02.383+11:002010-11-18T12:34:02.383+11:00Yes, I think that's true. Although it's im...Yes, I think that's true. Although it's impossible - and ought to be, too, despite moments when you wish it wasn't - to control how one is read: an act of reading is always a dance between reader and maker. I guess part of criticism <i>is</i> about establishing that subjectivity - however fictional or unstable it might be - so those who familiarise themselves with it will be able to Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-81488460729251057842010-11-18T12:06:58.130+11:002010-11-18T12:06:58.130+11:00Oh no, I didn't mean subtext as a personal bia...Oh no, I didn't mean subtext as a personal bias embedded in the writing. Probably the wrong word to use entirely. I meant more the subconscious of the piece of writing itself, perhaps, or the force which moves in a different direction to the surface meaning of the criticism. For instance, I read a Fringe Buzzcuts review earlier this year that was utterly praising of a work and at the same Born Dancin'https://www.blogger.com/profile/14526760383290674186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-26823614839140117842010-11-18T09:56:33.934+11:002010-11-18T09:56:33.934+11:00Hi Cameron - My favourite oft-quoted theorist on t...Hi Cameron - My favourite oft-quoted theorist on this is probably Sontag, in that shining essay Against Interpretation, in which she untangles some of the form/content sins of critics. I like the idea of an erotics of criticism. <br /><br />Epithets like "greatest living poet" make me flinch - I'm not sure that Carson deserves such rhetoric. Which is not to say she's not an Alison Croggonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08398213223487458758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202906.post-52369162350782142492010-11-18T01:59:40.049+11:002010-11-18T01:59:40.049+11:00@ Alison: Anne Carson is one of the greatest, if n...@ Alison: Anne Carson is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, living poets in the world is what I reckon. Not many writers can so unerringly shoot for the heart and make the mind dance into the bargain.<br /><br />@ JB "But I think we all probably say a lot in our writing that isn't there on the surface."<br /><br />My favourite quote on this subject is (again) from David Cameron Woodheadhttp://camwoodhead.comnoreply@blogger.com